i mean, the fiscal cliff was a friendly family discussion compared to this hatfield/mccoy environment that's unfolding with regard to spending. >> so you think this whole story is going to have some real heart-stopping moments for the markets? >> i think there will be huge consequences. recall that in the summer of 2011 the last time we faced this that the dow went down 1800 points in july and august. now, granted there were some other issues in europe that were a concern. but we could see some serious consequences as a result of these -- this inability to have a discussion on spending cuts. >> i know you're a bond specialist, but apple reducing their iphone orders and so forth. apple fell 3.5% today. $18 to 501. is this apple reduction in ipad orders, is this symbolic of an economy that's getting weaker? >> well, i think so. i think -- well, we have heard some people say that, yes, it's part apple. the company. but also, i think it is symbolic of just people not having enough certainty of what kind of money they will have in the future to spend on items such as what apple offers. >>